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PPMPR: Project Poor Man’s Pro Race

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toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
Contact:

PPMPR: Translation

Post by toratora » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:39 pm

Thanks for that image.

Here's what the Goog translator had to say:
Ducati ignition generator from Rieju 500 to the impeller 31 10 1210 BF It is measured with a Ducati 323 990 10 99 7 ignition switch. The charging capacitor has 2.0HF, the displacement curve is based on a reference setting of the Zzp, at 7000 rpm.

engine rpm
charging charge
ignitions charging
current charging
energy to adjustment.
Speed ​​voltage per spark per sec.
Average M value per second at 7000 rpm
I also sent off an email to Top for more information. I'll keep you apprised.
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User avatar
toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
Contact:

PPMPR: Plot it!

Post by toratora » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:39 pm

This morning I received an email from Top with this graph:

Top Performances "Red Box" 9921690

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HPI 2Ten

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Xero how does this compare with your experience? It doesn't seem to correlate very well with what Patrick posted. I'm really surprised by how long it takes to kick in. And it's very different than the HPI 2Ten curve.
scottydog wrote:I am curious to by it can't be used with stroked crankshaft. I wonder if the curve is just shifted more advanced to suit higher rpm engines so would cause an issue for the stroked ones? But the thing is stroked engines naturally retard the timing so you need to advance anyhow. I'll leave Tora to be the guinea pig!! lol
Thanks Scott!!! lolz

This will be interesting. I probably wouldn't have bought it had I seen this graph because it's in the ranges of 7K to 10K that I really want to see a performance chance. With the HPI by the time it's at 11K it is already well past the max of the Red Box. And the Red Box really doesn't do anything until 10.5K!

We should also probably try to find out where the stock ignition stabilizes. If it's around 20° this wouldn't feel much different, but if it's around 25° then there would be a small change. Moving the start point with either a special, or modded Woodruff, or just moving the flywheel without a key is an option, but since the variation pretty much occurs within 1.5K (plus another 2Kish) worth of RPM the change would need to be precise.
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toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
Contact:

PPMPR: Comments

Post by toratora » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:20 pm

mattology wrote:jesus christ that is a lot of goddamn timing
XERO wrote:I could add some 4 letter words to that, but I think Matt summed it up right there !!!

I really would question that graph from Top (I could be wrong though). That is almost completely counter to typical 2 Stroke timing. I wouldn't have guessed from my "butt dyno" that it was so FLAT for so long, with such a sharp drop.

My impression starts with the fact that my RS wouldn't rev much past 10.5k no matter what I did (go-fast goodies).
This was my initial take on it:
Xero wrote:With the carb set-up and running rather well I figured it would be a good time to mess around with this CDI and see if there is a noticeable difference. I left the OEM CDI in place so I could quickly swap back and forth between the two CDI's. First thing I should note is that when I got my '01 RS50 the engine, intake, exhaust was 100% stock. The bike would only rev to 10500, that was it. It would run right up and stop, wall ...(Of course freight training down a steep hill would push it past). Missed shifts at the wall would still only over-rev to 11250. My AM6 trans finds a neutral between 5th and 6th all the time and likes to pop out of 6th into neutral when hitting heavy bumps. Only 6th though.

After fitting:
Dellorto 21mm PHBG Racing carb,
V-Force Reed Cage,
Leo Vince V6 exhaust,
AF1 air filter for OEM air box,


And all the custom trick "wastes of time" to make it fit the bike would still only rev to 10500. It got there a lot faster and all that but still the wall remained!!! I ran a couple quick warm-up laps around the back roads and swapped over to the TOP's CDI and took it right back out.

The wall had been smashed, ran over, and was now only visible in the mirrors !!! Instant 11500 and 12000+ easy in down hill over-rev. 5th - 6th miss shift neutral sends needle blazing well past 12000 instantly (caution needed here for sure on a stock crank).

So there you have it. My CDI in my bike had some form of restriction built into it. Was this restriction just an unintentional "by product" of poor ignition timing, or was the poor ignition timing an intentional act of restriction ???
I have since dialed the Carb in even better and done some other minor tweeks and my RS gladly rev's well past the 12k on the Tach.
I would say good output starts around 9k, power feels rather light below but rev's quick and steady to the 9k. Nothing like the "dead holes" of other (race oriented) 125/250 2T's I've had the privilege of ripping. Power starts to fade out around 11.5 and somewhere a little past the 12k mark it feels like it starts "missing" and then output really drops.

The Power Band does feel rather flat, so that would at least follow suit with Top's graph in that RPM range. The "missing" could also kinda jive as well, my issue might be with fueling tailored to work with their timing of the RED Box at normal (street) engine speeds.

This is all very interesting !!!

Thinking back on it, I believe the chart Patrick posted was the Stock timing for the Ducati Ignition on the RS, not the RED Box.
Might have to Plot that against the Top and HPI graphs.

Oh, I think the "Black Ones" are just fine ...

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I can almost feel the headache this is going to cause already ...
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toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
Contact:

PPMPR: Street Tires

Post by toratora » Mon May 01, 2017 3:39 pm

The Track bike's conversion continues. Ed hooked me up with a tire swap today. Even put in new valve stems! Ed ROCKS!

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User avatar
toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
Contact:

PPMPR: Wheel Day!

Post by toratora » Sun May 14, 2017 3:39 pm

Today was a Wheel day! Yup. Cleaned up both wheels, removed the front disc, dressed the threads, and installed the new NG disc. It's really important to heat up the bolts before you try to remove them, or they will break! :eek:

Yes this isn't the stock rotor, but it's very similar. The main difference is the fasteners. With those switched the disc works fine. It's the same stats as the stock one, but with the newer look that came out for the 2005 machines. There is one difference, the stock disc is .5mm wider. It really shouldn't make much difference. Make sure you employ the proper thread lock!

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User avatar
toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
Contact:

PPMPR: Conversion Factor Five

Post by toratora » Mon May 15, 2017 3:39 pm

Nice little Dutch surprise showed up today...

There's actually stuff here for many different bikes, including the radiator for the Black bike. But many of these things will go on the PMPR bike so it's good. :)

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User avatar
toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
Contact:

PPMPR: Right Hand Switch

Post by toratora » Tue May 23, 2017 3:39 pm

Hard to see in this photo but the right hand switch arrived. It's the same fancy one I put on the Black bike. Should make it easy to set up a few things on this bike. ;)

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User avatar
toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
Contact:

PPMPR: Effort

Post by toratora » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:39 pm

Lots of effort went into this bike to get it converted back to street for GPR Camp. Both Jimmy and Ed helped a lot, and with their awesome help I was able to get the bike ready to ride. There were a lot of trials and tribulations solving all sorts of problems with the conversion. I had to borrow, and scrounge parts from many of my other bikes to pull it off, and come up with some creative solutions. Most of which I'm not even going to bother to document because they were just too crazy. It was worth it though because I'm really happy with how the bike looks and how it's running.

The custom shock res mount, and exhaust hanger needed to be modified for the tail section to fit. The shock res mount is a temporary mod because I didn't have time to do it properly. There was just to much to accomplish in too little of time.

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Another big thing to get done was the ignition. First I had to take off the HPI, and because I had to move the bike stuff I couldn't find the puller. I was under extreme time pressure so I had to resort the Pickup Truck mechanic's method--which worked great. Then I had to come up with a mounting system for the Top. I used part of the HPI coil mount to mount the Top coil, and zip ties to mount the CDI.

The wiring was pretty straight forward. Just like the stock CDI really. The White/Black cable connects to the Green/Black cable to kill the engine. The top end on the bike is the Project Poor Man's ProRace (the modified Airsal I did some years ago), with a MetraKit ProRace pipe, and a 24mm MetraKit PWK carb.

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The Mychron 3 ended up being great, and unfortunately I don't have photos of all the work that went into putting it on the bike. The one photo I took is the speed sensor which required a magnet. I ended up using one pulled from the fridge! lolz Ed fashioned up a bracket for the sensor, and then I wired it up. The Mychron 3 has two temp sensors, a speed sensor, and a tach sensor. It can also sense a beacon on the track, but I'm not employing that for it. It records the data which can then be fed into a computer and analyzed. That's something I might play around with later. It also features warnings for low temp, and high temp for each sensor, tach limit, and I think it can even figure out what gear the bike is in based on speed and RPM once setup. I've a bit of learning to do with it yet. lolz You can also seen the new rotor I found that would fit the bike.

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Lots of work went into the livery, but I only have finished photos. These mostly came from at GPR Camp. ;) I got some nice bits from EasyParts including new mirrors, and clear blinkers which also give the bike a nice look. And it got a new set of MC18s--If you have one of these bikes and you don't have these tires yet I don't know what you are waiting for--these really make a huge difference on these bikes!

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The chain is worn out, but I didn't have time to replace it. Will have to do that soon. I also need to get some Derbi stickers for the faux tank.

The bike runs really strong. It's got decent mid-range power, and when it gets on the pipe it pulls. The funny thing is how late it gets on the pipe—somewhere around 9500 RPM! It does seem to struggle from 8500 or so though. That 1,000 RPM is really tough to ride around, and I'm going to have to see if I can tune things a little bit better.

Ed's RS50 has the aluminum Top Performance kit that Matt set up. This bike can out pull Matt's kit by quite a bit. Which was a bit surprising—pleasantly so. If you can keep the bike on the pipe it's an absolute joy to ride. We had some spirited riding on Panoramic, Bo-Fax, and 21 corners and it was just so much fun. It was lots of work bringing this bike back to the street, and oh so worth it—now I'm going to have to give the bike a different name. ;)
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User avatar
toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
Contact:

PPMPR: Response

Post by toratora » Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:39 pm

Rj_666 wrote:Impeccable, as always.
These are Hollywood photos. As long as you don't get too close. ;)
mattology wrote:that's awesome! what gearing and pipes did both bikes have? i has best luck with the moto carenzi pipe
My bike has a lot of advantages over Ed's. I have a ProRace pipe, I think his has a Gianelli. I'm running a 24 Metrakit carb, he's got a 21 CP. His gearing is set for the freeway, mine was a bit lower. I'm running the Top CDI, and I think his is still stock. I have way better tires. ;) Still I was doing comparisons on when the bikes were both on the pipe and pulling strong. I think he could probably do a lot to get more performance, and I probably couldn't do much more. ;)
Denee007 wrote:Gee, it can only be perfect!! I Love it!
Thanks—this is just a fun bike. I wanted it to at least be presentable for GPR Camp. And of course be fun to ride—which it was in spades.
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User avatar
toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
Contact:

PPMPR: the MyChron 3 Plus

Post by toratora » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:39 pm

Here are the MyChron 3 Plus' that I picked up. One of them is now installed on this bike. I need to post some photos of the installation. :P But for now you can see the boxes. The one I used has a mod to allow it to take power from the bike rather than wasting batteries. I've read that these should last months on a set of batteries, but this one wont even last a day on a new set. It also kills the bike's battery—even when turned off. For now I'm just unplugging it after riding it. I need to set the power to go through the key switch. :P

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