Support GPR Camp!!

DRP: Derbi Reactivation Project

Create a thread about your bike.
Post Reply
User avatar
toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
Contact:

DRP: The Fair Lady

Post by toratora » Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:39 pm

Figuring out the bracket strategy would be so much simpler if I could just TIG weld some posts onto the frame. ;)

Now that I have the first bracket in place it's a little easier to start with the following brackets. But to do so I first have to make sure things will line up well enough. I imagine at some point I'm going to have to deal with the pipe too. :eek:

Image

Image

Image

Looks like the front side fills may even work with out modification.

Image

Image
0 x

User avatar
toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
Contact:

DRP: Ions, and why customer service matters

Post by toratora » Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:39 pm

Some time ago I bought into the whole Lithium Iron Phosphate battery solution. Although maybe I should rephrase that as problem generator. I bought four of the Ballistic LiFePO batteries, and the fancy charger. The early batteries all had manufacturing issues. They didn't work right. It took me until today--years and years to get a solution. About a month ago one of the batteries was replaced with a working unit. One of the four that I had bought originally worked. That brought me up to two working batteries. Ballistic really didn't seem to stand behind their product, but the rep for my dealer worked it out so that the store got credit for the batteries. The store then ordered a couple of the Shorai's for me as replacements. I got those today. Huge thanks to the rep, and the store for making this happen.

Image

So how do the two batteries compare? On the Ballistic side I have the EVO2 4 cell 100-010. It retails for $109, weighs .979 pounds, has 2.3Ahrs, and 120 CCA (cold cranking amps). There are two Shorai's for the Derbi. The LFX07L2-BS12, and the LFX09L2-BS12. the 7 is listed as the standard and the 9 as the "duration" model. I went for the 9 because I just didn't want issues. Specs for the 7 are $99 retail, weighs .93 pounds, has 102 CCA (they don't list Ahrs). The 9 retails for $115, weighs 1.28 pounds, and has 135 CCA.

Image

Image

The Ballistic is much smaller, and a little bit lighter than the 9. It looks much sexier thanks to being black and red, has nicer brass battery posts, and just gives off the impression that it is high tech. The Shorai is shaped like a standard battery. Has the same kind of lame battery posts as a standard battery, and just looks totally boring. It's not the sort of thing that people are going to look at and think wow that looks nice. And yeah those lame style battery posts that are a pain in the ass to use.

Image

The Ballistic employs closed cell foam for placing it in the battery compartment on the bike. They provide an over sized piece that can be cut down to fit. Works quite well, and looks cool. Shorai provides multiple layers of foam padding that is taped to the battery. You keep adding layers until you get enough to keep the battery in place. You can guess which one I think rocks, and which one is a dumb total pain in the ass.

Image

Image

Both batteries employ a special control connector so that when you charge them it can direct the charge to an individual cell. This is a huge benefit because you can ensure that all four cells are charged to the same level. You can also find out if a cell is going bad.

Image

This is the Ballistic charger setup to do a four cell balance.

Image

This is the Ballistic getting a balance.

Image

This is the Shorai getting a balance.

Image

Conclusion at this point. I've not yet employed the Shorai. You can tell that I actually prefer the esthetics of the Ballistic. I think the Americans just did a better job with the looks, and packaging than the Japanese. This is why I probably stopped buying Japanese bikes. I appreciate things where the design doesn't look like it was developed to hit a price point. Sure the European bikes are designed that way too, but they don't look like it.

Whenever a new technology comes around there are growing pains. It takes a while to work out the issues. I can totally cut Ballistic some slack in that direction. Clearly they figured things out, and fixed the issues. But they did something so morally apprehensible that I just cannot recommend their product--yeah even though I honestly believe they have a better product (at least with regards to looks and design), but the way they treat their customers is total bullshit. Right away they should have admitted they had a manufacturing issue, and just replaced the batteries. But they didn't--they didn't do it for years. And they made it so difficult on the dealer, the rep, and on the customer. That's just wrong.

The Shorai doesn't look as nice with regards to design. But it does look like it is a quality product. They too have had a few years to work things out so I expect that these batteries will be problem free, and I hope I never have to find out about their customer service.

Wrapping it up. Yup the Shorai is what I would suggest you check out if you are in the market for one of these hi-tech units. Now does a $115 dollar battery really succeed as all that when a $20 Yaussa can do the same job with a bit more weight? Probably not really. Which makes you wonder why Ballistic didn't support a customer that could have spent $80 buying lead acid batteries actually spent $500 getting four LiFePO batteries, and charger.
0 x

User avatar
toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
Contact:

DRP: When to Switch

Post by toratora » Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:39 pm

It's amazing the array of batteries that are available today. It probably has a lot to do with portable devices, and electric cars. I intend to install one of the Shorais in the Wicked GPR, and one in the Silver GPR. Currently in the Silver Bike I have the Yuasa that I bought to use in the Red Bike while the whole Ballistic thing got worked out. It took two deep charges on the battery charger to bring it back, as it had been sitting for about a year. But now the Yuasa is working pretty well. So I'm a little hesitant to swap it out. :eek:

I've been doing the balance charge on the three LiFePO batteries. There is a fourth one that goes with the Monza moped. I'm going to have to check into that one soon too. Each of the four cells pop up to about 4 volts. The Shorais are doing well, but in the Ballistic the levels don't always stay there. I think the Ballistics that I've got are going to just be a loss. I really do feel burned by them.
0 x

User avatar
toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
Contact:

DRP: The Being of Funny

Post by toratora » Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:39 pm

XERO wrote:I installed one of the Shorai batteries in my RS a few years ago and haven't had a single issue.
Haven't even needed to stick it on a charger.
I have yet to get around to buying one of those slick chargers like you have there, but thinking it might be worth the investment.
Looks way cool too.

I went all in and got the LFX14L2-BS12 for my RS.
14 Ah equivalent with 210 CCA at 1.46 lbs.

Our winters get down right Arctic feeling and I have always had issues with the little Lead Acid batteries crapping out.
Years and years ago I started buying AGM type batteries for my other bikes and was very pleased with their "over-wintering" endurance.
Only issue with them is that they still weighed as much as a standard battery.
When it came time to refit the RS, I did some homework and opted to buy Shorai over the Ballistic ... Glad I did !!!
Sucks Ballistic doesn't stand behind their product with any amount of pride.

I do agree with your take on the foam and aesthetics, however I must say that the Shorai dropped right in the RS's battery tray and no foam needed.
Our winters get so damn cold that I sometimes think--well it's time to put on a hoodie! In fact it's so cold here that I can run straight water in my cooling system, and never worry about it crystallizing and breaking my engine. This one time, at GPR camp, it got so cold, that I had to wear a long sleeve T-Shirt! :lol:

Seriously though--I never have environmental issues with hot or cold here in the Bay area. Our temps are very mild. I have read that the LiFePO batteries don't do so well in the actual cold, and you probably wouldn't want to run them in a snowmobile.

The 14 is a big jump from the recommended 7, and here I thought I was doing extra by going with the 9! On the Silver Bike a strong battery will be nice since it still has the starter, but on the Red Bike, and the Wicked GPR it's not an issue since both bikes have had them removed. All the battery needs to be able to do with those two bikes is run the clocks, horn, and blinkers when the bike is at idle. About as low stress as you could ask of a battery, and yet the Ballistics weren't even up to that challenge. :eek:

Of all the Ballistic gear I've bought the charger seems to be the only thing that actually works. But it looks like it's just a rebranded item that they slapped a sticker on, and called it their own. It could probably be sourced from the original manufacturer for an even better price--and likely as not better customer service too. The Shorai charger doesn't look to have the same feature set--it's more plug and pray style. The one thing about the Ballistic BMS (battery management system) charger is that by today's standards the UI is horrible. It's like an early 1980's paged menu from hell. In the 80's that was fine. It's all we had, but here in 2015 you'd expect that thirty five years would have had an effect. Nope!

Since I have a bunch of the closed cell foam from the Ballistics I'm probably going to employ that with the Shorai. ;) You bought the 14 which is larger, significantly so, than the 7, or the 9 so I can see where that would drop right in. I wont have that with the 9. These batteries are tiny. The Ballistic even more so, but even still the Shorai 9 is still quite small. :)
0 x

User avatar
toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
Contact:

DRP: Rainy Days and Mondays

Post by toratora » Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:39 pm

We have rain today in San Francisco. This is good as we are suffering one of the worst droughts in our recorded history. So I'm cool with it, but it does limit what sorts of things I can do with regards to bike wrenching. Thus I figured I might as well install the Shorai into the Wicked GPR!

The battery box.

Image

The Shorai sitting in the box for sizing.

Image

Trimming up the first piece--a hack saw cuts through this stuff like butter!

Image

Image

Fitted in with two buffer pieces of foam. I decided to offset it rather than center making it easier to get at the terminals.

Image

They include two extra screws/nuts. This is a nice touch. The also put some of the foam on the nuts to make it easier for the screws to reach the nuts with these darn icky terminals. Yeah I know why they do it this way, I just don't like this style of terminals.

Image

All installed, and happy. The blinkers, and horn tested quite nicely. ;)

Image
0 x

User avatar
toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
Contact:

DRP: What is your bracket?

Post by toratora » Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:39 pm

This task has been a real challenge for me because I just don't have the proper tools, or supplies to pull off what I want. :/

The basic plan is to set up a bracket that is similar to what track bikes employ. It's basically a rod coming from the bike, and a tube on the faring that slides over the rod. Then an R clip is employed to hold them together. Lots of race bikes use this method, and I think this is really the way I want to go for the Wicked GPR.

I have some of these parts from things I've collected, but I only have partial pieces. Probably because the rod section would be on the bike.

Image

For the bracket I have some aluminum stock. I need about a 45° angle bent at 90° to get what I want. But I don't have a brake with which to bend the metal. Something like this would be great!

Image

But this is what I was able to fashion up.

Image

And of course I had to employ a persuader.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Here's the general idea:

Image

Image

Image

Now I need to source some rod that will fit into this tube. It looks to be about 14mm ID. Then drill some holes, trim the pieces, tap the rod in order to attach it to the bracket with a fastener, and I'm close!

Image
0 x

User avatar
toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
Contact:

DRP: Incremental Advancement

Post by toratora » Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:39 pm

XERO wrote:I wish I lived in an area that had as mild of temperatures as that ...
I spend about 4 months in Under Armor thermals and at least a solid 8 in hoodies.
toratora wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:39 pm
This one time, at GPR camp, it got so cold, that I had to wear a long sleeve T-Shirt!
:plus:

I read about the battries not liking the extreme cold as well, and meant to bring it in the first winter ...
I did go out and fire it up from time to time (once a month if it was lucky) and never had an issue.
Dead of winter at night and temps nose-dive into the negatives, hell last winter we had a 3 month stretch that didn't brake out of the 20's. So I'm not sure where the threshold on cold is for these batteries.

Those "quick release" fairing mounts are so nice when wrenching, nice touch.

For quick metal bending (thin stuff) I have a pair of these and they work amazing !!!

Image
Mine are from Snap-On but Vise Grip and some others sell them as well.
Search "sheet metal pliers" ...
Sometimes I'm really surprised at how many steps it takes to achieve what even remotely seems like progress. The local hardware store that usually has everything I need didn't have any aluminum, or plastic tubing or rods in the sizes I wanted. They did have wooden dowels which I almost went for, but decided to see what Home Depot might have available. At the HD I found some aluminum 1/2" tubing that fit inside the aluminum faring mounts. I'd rather have used the plastic mounts because they seem better, but okay whatever is going to work.

I picked up the tubing, some M10 bolts, a tap, and some washers.

Image

I did some tests with threading the tubing. It was difficult, but eventually I was able to get it threaded.

Image

Image

I have a tubing cutter, but it didn't work so well. I ended up using the hack saw to cut the tubing. I needed two inner tubes that I'll be bolting onto the brackets, on which the outer tubes bolted to the fairings will slide. I may have to shorten the outer tubes a bit. The aluminum ones thanks to the nylon mount are a bit wider, and because I'm bolting on the inner tubes I need more room all around. It doesn't help that the bike is actually much wider that the bike for which the farings were made! If I had a TIG welder I probably wouldn't be messing around with all this stuff. I would just weld the inner tube to the bracket. :lol:

Image

Image
0 x

User avatar
toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
Contact:

DRP: Riders On The Storm

Post by toratora » Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:39 pm

Hey Xero,

Speaking of GPR Camp. I'd really like to have a rally for these kinds of bikes--similar to what the Moped cats do for their rallies. I wonder if there would be enough interest for something like that here in the States.

Four months off is better than I did this year. Thanks to all the bad drivers running over my bikes I really haven't been able to ride until I got the Silver bike on the road. I still haven't really gone on a proper ride yet this year, and last year was quite sparse too. Seriously for about two years all I've been riding were my BMX bikes--and thank goodness I had those to ride, or I probably would have gone insane. This moto drought is going to change though--gosh darn it! :lol: Even just riding out to the hardware store today was a treat. I just love the sound, smell, and feeling of these bikes. Just puts that big smile on my face. :D

I do hope these faring mounts are worth all the effort. I mean it's totally goofy the extent to which I am going to get what I want, but hey this is the Wicked GPR so I have to go for it, you know? ;)

Those sheet metal pliers looks so handy! :)

I think 20°F is below the suggested rating of the the LiFePO batteries. Nope I was wrong, it is right at the suggested low point!
Shorai wrote:A. Down to about 20 degrees Fahrenheit (-7C) most users find that they can start normally on first crank. If your headlight comes on at key-ON, it is good for the batteries to flow some current before cranking in cold weather. The suggested headlight-on time before cranking depends on the temperature. If starting at 40F/5C, 30 seconds will help wake the battery and increase cranking performance. If at 0F/-17C, leave the lights on for 4~5 minutes before cranking. The result will be a better first crank, and longer battery life. If the engine fails to start on first crank, that first crank has warmed the battery, and the second attempt will be much stronger. Other accessories that can be turned on before cranking can also be used for this purpose, such as heated gear, radio, etc... Insuring that the battery is fully charged after storage also improves first-start performance in cold weather.
0 x

User avatar
toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
Contact:

DRP: Grand Prix Replica Camp 999

Post by toratora » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:39 pm

Molino wrote:So down to have an AM6/EB01 eurotrash rally!
Xero wrote:tora,
toratora wrote:I'd really like to have a rally for these kinds of bikes—similar to what the Moped cats do for their rallies.
How "Billy-Bad-Ass" would that be !!!

It's a shame really, that the smoke crowd is so dispersed across the States these days.
I would be so up for a "GPR Camp" (LOL) but it's against my Religion to trailer a bike.
I would have no qualms with ripping the ZX across the Country, but I'm too old, lazy, and poor for a 2 Stroke Marathon like that.
Head East, way East and I'll do my best ...

Helpfull Hint of the Day :

Tapping straight is best done with the tap vertical, it's a lot easier to sight straight and square when the parts are upright.
Hey Guys,

It would be so much fun to have a GPR Camp. ;) Maybe we should start up a thread in the off topic section to see what kind of traction the idea has on this foro, and see what support we could get. I use to get a bit hung up on trailering a bike, but doing track days kind of changed my feelings on this, because well you can't ride a proper track bike on the street. ;) That and dirt bikes are kind of the same thing too. I'll have to do a post of the bike carrier that I have on the Saab. JP helped me make a custom setup, and for these small bikes it works really well. :)

Mark, if you can try a test with a battery charger that can be set to start mode. I don't think 100ish cca is going to work for you. I'm running something close to that with the same sort of results--that is to say no improvement. I'll probably put the second Shorai in the Silver bike to see if a 9 with 132 cca makes a difference, but like what Xero did with over 200 just might be what it takes.

Xero, as you can see from the photos I don't have a shop within which to work. I either work in the kitchen, or out on the street. It totally bites, but it's all I have access to currently. I didn't have a way to get enough grip on the tube without putting it in the vice the way I did—and even then it still spun. This setup did result in bad threads in the first part of the tube, but getting the tap in far enough I could get decent threads cut once the tube forced the tap to straighten out. Totally non-optimal, but I pretty much have to work in such conditions all the time. Oh to have a proper shop within which to work! :eek:
0 x

User avatar
toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
Contact:

DRP: Tubeway Army

Post by toratora » Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:39 pm

I did get a little bit more time in on the bracket action. I actually got one nearly functional! Here's the bracket attaching to the frame where the stock bracket mounts.

Image

Image

Image

This is the inner tube mounted to the bracket.

Image

And here is the system working. I still have to trim off the extra material, but you can see how the outer tube is slid over the inner tube. I do plan on adding a hole for the R clip, although there's plenty of friction holding it in for now.

Image

Image

Image
0 x

Post Reply