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Derbi—The Red Power

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toratora
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Cagiva Mito
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Derbi—The Red Power: Shattered Dreams

Post by toratora » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:39 pm

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My buddy Paul contacted me letting me know that he had found some Derbi parts lingering in his garage. He was actively doing Fall cleaning. ;)

He asked if I was interested in them, so yesterday I went over, and picked them up.

The parts were from two bikes. One bike that I had bought previously from Dan, and the other was a failed conversion project. Someone had the bright idea to put a 250 engine into a GPR.

He did quite a bit of work, and suprizingly for this sort of train wreck the welding was actually pretty decent. But as most of these conversions go it was never completed, and we end up with yet another destroyed GPR. :shock:

I really don't understand the mentality of people do this shit. If you want a 250 then just get a 250. :?

Obviously many of the parts on this bike were messed up. The few plastic pieces left have lots of cracks. The faux tank looks pretty good so that will probably get donated to Jimmy’s bike. The other bits will find homes on various other projects—so it wont be a total waste.

As for the frame if there’s someone out there that wants it let me know—I don’t plan on keeping it.
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toratora
Posts: 3161
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Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
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Aprilia RS50
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Derbi—The Red Power: Where's the Spark?

Post by toratora » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:39 am

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Thanks to the rain letting up I was finally able to get some wrenching in today. Most of it was on the DRP, but I did get to start the trouble shooting on the Silver bike. :ghost:

I started off by pulling the plug, since a fouled plug could be the cause of it not starting. The plug looked okay, but I got out the sand paper and cleaned it up anyway. That didn’t make a difference though. :monocle:

My neighbor let me borrow his electric impact driver. With this carefully employed I can check for spark. The tool turns the engine over handily with no plug installed, but there was no spark to be found—and yes I did spin the engine counter clockwise. :hugs:

I tried checking the plug line, but that didn’t make a difference. I did a number of various tests looking for spark, but it just wasn’t having it. The entire time I spun the engine I only saw two sparks. :?
. Next up I checked the wash with the bore scope. No wash to inspect, but I did find something very disconcerting. It looks like there’s been a mild could seize, as there are abrasions in the four corners. This probably happened when I tried to start it up on a cold morning. Well I know not to do that in the future. :grimacing:

The engine still has good compression, so it will probably be okay if I can get the spark working. For now I’m probably going to install a stock ignition, and see if that brings it to life. I’ll likely try another plug wire first just incase that’s the offending unit. :paw_prints:





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toratora
Posts: 3161
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Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
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Silver: Ignition

Post by toratora » Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:39 am

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One of the issues with this bike was the HPI ignition—there was no spark. I thought it might possibly be the main plug lead, so before removing the HPI I figured it was at least worth testing that hypothesis. I had a lead from another bike that worked previously.

After installation I used the Dewalt to spin the engine, but there was still no spark. Also since the engine spins counter clockwise eventually the nut that secures the flywheel came loose. At which point I figure it was time to remove the HPI from the bike.

I got out the shiny new puller only to find not only did it not fit the HPI it also doesn’t fit the stock Derbi flywheel (even those the package makes that claim). This meant it was time to employ the old pickup truck mechanics method of flywheel removal.

This is the method of applying a small amount of force on the flywheel and then tapping the crank with a hammer. It's a good idea to put a nut on the crank so as not to mess up the threads, and it is also important to not beat on it too hard or it will cause deformation.

The trick is to break free the force of the taper. It took a bit of effort, but eventually the flywheel became free, and I could remove it. Turning the flywheel every so often helps free things up, as would heat if it were available say like from a heat gun. Today I didn’t have that luxury.

With the flywheel of it as relatively simple to remove the rest of the HPI. Really I’m disappointed to have to do this, because I was very keen to compare the two bikes with the BR77s as the HPI, and the pipes are really the only differentiating items.

This would really show the advantage of the HPI, or illustrate the negative too. I’ll have to see what HPI is willing to do about it, but my expectations are low.

With the HPI removed it was time to install the stock ignition. To mount the plate the stater must be removed from the plate. Otherwise it’s not possible to insert and torque the plate mounting bolts.

On the engine is a triangle which aligns with a hash mark on the plate. The triangle is near the left upper corner. On the plate the mark is just a bit clockwise from the opening where the wire lead feeds through—so it is all quite easy to locate, and set.

With the plate in place next up with securing the stator with the three Philips head screws. None of this requires much torque, but a little bit of thread lock isn’t such a bad idea considering the amount of vibration that occurs.

I couldn’t locate a woodruff key, which really isn’t necessary, but makes things a lot easier to assemble. So I marked the crank with a Sharpe, to help me with a visual alignment.

To hold the crank from spinning I inserted a piston stop in the spark plug hole. Then I aligned the flywheel, and gave it a tap with the hammer to set it in place.

With flywheel located and in place it was time to set the crank magneto nut. The torque specs are on GPR Camp so I looked those up (3.5-4.5 m. kg), and employ the torque wrench to set it.

I had already remounted the CDI, and it is easy enough to install the wiring as it is clearly labeled on the CDI. Once these were in place it was time to check for spark. Huzzah!! There was plenty of great spark.

Next up was to install the plug, and start the engine up. Sadly it didn’t start. I pulled the plug and it was moist indicating fuel was available.

Assuming that I placed the flywheel in the proper location I wondered if maybe it could be a compression issue. The scoring seen previously with the bore scope did leave reason to be concerned.

I fished out the compression gauge. With the Dewalt I could only get about 75 PSI before the nut would break free. Pushing the bike it would reach as high as 100 PSI.

By this time it was dark and cold so I had to wrap it up. I brought in the tools, locked up the bikes, and put the covers back on. :paw_prints:
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Rj_666
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Re: Derbi—The Red Power

Post by Rj_666 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:44 pm

That really is sad news about the HPI.. I had high hopes, and I'm sure you did as well.....
I continue to look for a good inner rotor / mini rotor replacement for the RS50.
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User avatar
toratora
Posts: 3161
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Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
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Derbi—The Red Power: HPI

Post by toratora » Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:39 pm

I’ve been trying to get them to work for years. With all of the troubles I’ve had with them it would be hard for me to recommend them. They look cool though. :grimacing:
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User avatar
toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
Contact:

Derbi—The Red Power: Mirror Mirror

Post by toratora » Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:39 am

Minor little fix on the Silver bike while wrenching on the other bikes. In the stash from Paul was an unbroken left side mirror. :hugs:

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User avatar
toratora
Posts: 3161
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Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
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x 1977
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Derbi—The Red Power: HPI more Corroboration

Post by toratora » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:39 pm

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Admittedly this is anecdotal rumor mongering, but on the FB today I was interacting with another Two Stroker, and he was telling me that the HPI is well known for burning out.

I’ve hardly used this one at all, and it’s not producing spark. Seems that this is par for the HPI course. :?
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kaldis12
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Derbi—The Red Power

Post by kaldis12 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:29 pm

You could get something from Ignitech though. You could try out their pulse rotor, or just buy their CDI you can use that from a battery. Pretty useful.
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User avatar
toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
x 1768
x 1977
Contact:

Derbi—The Red Power: Ignitech

Post by toratora » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:39 am

I would like to know more about these cats. At some point I’ll probably attempt to deal with fancy ignitions again. Now just doesn't seem like the proper time though—unfortunately.
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toratora
Posts: 3161
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:05 am
Location: San Francisco
Replica: Derbi GPR
Cagiva Mito
Cobra CX65
Aprilia RS50
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x 1977
Contact:

Derbi—The Red Power: Rotating Mass

Post by toratora » Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:39 pm

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The last time I rode the Malossi bike was during the Creature's 2018 rally. During the treasure hunt event the engine locked up. I thought it was the transmission, but I was wrong. Really I should have realized what happened to some extent based on a similar event that happened when Owen was riding another bike of mine with an EBE075. However, even though this was similar it was actually much worse. With Owen it was a failed flywheel. Here it was a failed crank.

First off came the skirts, and then since this bike is going to be down for a while the battery was pulled too.


I figured I might as well take a look at the wash. The piston was fairly high up, and at the time I didn’t have a means to spin the engine. The plug was also very wet. Considering that it had been many months this was surprising.


Anyway, this engine was going to have to come out, and thus the process to remove it began. I wanted to try spinning the engine to get a better look at the wash so I pulled off the stator cover. One portent was the fluid coming out with this cover bolt—more on this later. With the cover off that’s when I discovered that the transmission was probably not the reason the bike stopped running.

So this is really curious. When it happened I was revving pretty high (for this bike), when to shift, and the engine locked up. I thought it was the transmission because it happened while shifting, but in this case it was a crank failure when the engine went from load to no load. I’ve never experienced this in the entire time I’ve been riding motos. I’ve got a bunch more photos to write up, but it seems prudent to separate these into multiple posts. :paw_prints:



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